MacSpeech Forums and Discussion » Special Topics » Feature Requests

1. Oliver Bogler
   Member

   I remember using Dragon on a PC about 10 years ago, and being amazed by its ability. Likewise, Dictate is a fantastic program, in terms of recognition and getting the words you speak into the document.

   However, after waiting for it to come out, and buying it in Apr '08 along with the xTag microphone, I find myself never using it. I set it up, trained etc and was so excited. Then, first time I clicked into the document I was dictating into, the whole thing went haywire. Long story short, after some searching, I learned that you cannot move your insertion point, or click and correct with the mouse or keybord, while dictating - its one or the other.

   This is, frankly, a fatal flaw. This is how a machine works, and not how a person works - in other words, the program will tell you how to work, and does not conform to how people actually work.

   Some things are better done by dictation, and others with a mouse. I work in a technical field, and so there are many, many words/acronyms etc that Dictate will never learn, and so I need to be able to click in and type a few characters before resuming dictation. But even if it was not the technical issues, just putting the cursor where it needs to be, is a mouse thing. Or if you want to move a sentence up the page etc. All the neat shortcuts you learned in your word processor are now forbidden, or you are forced to relearn them the Dictate way.

   Precedent suggests that to succeed in an ecosystem, the new needs to fit in with the old. Mac's are gaining market share because the barrier to entry is lowering, in a Microsoft world. Dictate needs to work nicely with word processors - you need to be able to work normally, with the added benefit of now being able to speak your words.

   I have to be honest - if I had known this ahead of time, I would not have bought the product.

   I am hanging on to my copy of Dictate, in the hope that this huge issue will be fixed. It has been 5 months since I bought it, and so now I am posting this request for a comment, and an indication of when this might be fixed.

   Thanks,

   Oliver

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. jayg
   Administrator

   Thank you for your feedback. I want to make sure we correctly capture your request:

   "Dual editing" means you want to be able to edit by hand (mouse, keyboard) a document that you are also editing by voice.

   Also, you want to have Dictate learn your new technical terms, including domain-specific words and acronyms. And/or you would like a more efficient way to enter these by speech. And if that doesn't do the trick, do it by typing.

   btw, please let us know which word processor(s) you are using.

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. matthewls
   Member

   I agree with Oliver about the importance of using both "hand" (keyboard and mouse) and voice editing simultaneously. I also agree that this is probably the single biggest problem so far in MacSpeech Dictate. I am trying to change my editing habits to stick with simply voice to dictate and then, only afterward, to use the keyboard and mouse, and the jury is out on the extent to which this is useful (that is that I can change my habits successfully). It may work because Dictate is so extraordinarily accurate.

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. Oliver Bogler
   Member

   @jayg
   Yes - by dual editing (probably not the best term) I mean being able to manipulate what I am dictating with mouse and keyboard at will. So, for example, I might dictate a sentence, then click into it and type an acronym. Or I might double click a sentence and drag it to another part of the document, reinsert at the bottom and continue dictating.

   At present, when I do this, the software adds parts of the text in the document in an odd way.

   I am not keen on teaching the terms to Dictate, because there are many, and they change all the time. For example, I often review other's work, and so I might type a particular term 20 times that day, and then not again for several months. For things I use all the time, I would be happy to make a macro.

   I use Word from from Office for Mac 2004, but I am also happy for this to work in the Dictate notepad.

   I have tried following the path that matthewls describes, but find that the main benefit of Dictate (speed and flow, and saving my sore wrists) is offset by having to think about navigation commands and learning the new way. I am, perhaps regrettably, a pretty fast and accurate typist, and so the lure to go back to just typing is always there.

   I appreciate the fast reply, and hope that this issue can be resolved.

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. Oliver Bogler
   Member

   It's been two weeks - any update?

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. sperkins
   Member

   Other forum threads echo Oliver's constructive, but increasingly frustrated attempts to find out when MacSpeech Dictate will have the correction and spelling features that would make it worth using. As one who bought the program last March and shelved it until the long-promised correction and spelling features were added, I would be grateful if administrator jayg's superiors would give us a concrete assurance about the release date of the updated version 1.2 mentioned in other forums.

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. Joanna
   Member

   I completely agree with Oliver. I have the new upgrade and this is still broken. This is a *fatal* flaw. I am *very* good with computers and I am having a lot of trouble figuring out what the "right" solution is that MacSpeech intends us to use. Even if I find it, most people will not spend this kind of effort.

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. Marc_Davis
   Member

   @jayg

   All of us are waiting for the "dual editing" feature to be repaired. If I'm not mistaken, "dual editing" works with Dragon. If you get dual editing to work, I guarantee the complaints about Dictate will go way down! I have been complaining about this problem to you for months, although I didn't have such a catchy phrase. I guarantee that this is the most important problem that Dictate currently faces.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. vnagy
   Member

   I agree with the comments about this program it works great but it's a far cry still from Dragon. I simply can't even find fixes and workarounds on the Internet for various situations I've got MacSpeech Dictate. I've spent hours and hours researching workarounds for various situations which are mostly outlined in the above posts. Now it is March 21, 2009 and still doesn't quite work right it's not capable of using a combination of keyboard mouse and MacSpeech.
   And since I don't like feeling wasting my time too long. I purchased a nice little PC laptop and installed Dragon 10. Wow what a difference.
   Then what I did is a drag document to my shared folders on my PC and then pick them up out of there with my Mac.
   I dictated this on my Mac with MacSpeech and this took me I would say about 50% longer than it would have on my laptop PC.
   I can't wait for MacSpeech to fix all these issues.
   From Vic Nagy at Toronto painters, HTTP://www.Hollywoodpainting.com

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. pdbecht
    Member

    I find myself drifting to Dragon because of the superior editing capabilities. I can mouse and type and dictate in Dragon. I want that. I require that. I use Dragon then move my doc via flash drive to my Mac to submit it. I use Dictate for emails and other less important things. I will keep up with Dictate because of my love of Mac but I can no longer type because of my neurological disorder and I have to get work done. Let the best tool win.

    Pdbecht

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. jayg
    Administrator

    Thank you for providing more information about the specific functionality you'd like to see in MacSpeech Dictate.

    The new functionality of "Cache Document" and "Cache Selection" commands may be helpful. These allow Dictate to learn text that wasn't modified through dictation. This includes text changes you make using the keyboard and mouse (cutting, pasting, using mouse to move cursor, etc.) as well as existing documents opened by other word processing and text editing applications. To discuss further the use of these commands, please feel free to use the "Using Dictate" section of these Forums.

    Thanks!

    -Jay-

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. Anonymous
    Unregistered

    I too dearly want mixed editing. A beefed up notepad for rich support towards mixed editing would go a long way. I used DNS many years ago and often I miss it a lot. I am hoping Nuance wont/has not hinder Dictate to compete directly with DNS by limiting what Dictate can do.

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. endymion
    Member

    I've been looking for more information on the MacSpeech "cache" concept trying to find out why it exists in the first place. The MacSpeech cache is the root of this problem. I completely agree with this statement from the original post almost a year ago:

    "This is, frankly, a fatal flaw. This is how a machine works, and not how a person works - in other words, the program will tell you how to work, and does not conform to how people actually work."

    MacSpeech might need to maintain a cache of the current document, but it shouldn't expose the concept to end users. The reason that we can't mix typing and dictation in a single document is the cache, and the fact that typing will cause the cache to get out of sync with the real document.

    Which leads to the next obvious question: Why doesn't MacSpeech synchronize its own cache to the contents of the document all by itself?

    To prove that "It's not possible" is not a valid answer to the above question, go into your System Preferences, under Universal Access, and activate VoiceOver. Open Mail. Make a new message. Go into the body of the new message and dictate these two words with MacSpeech: "MacSpeech" [pause] "failure". Now click the Subject line of the message, and click back into the body of the message. VoiceOver will read "MacSpeech failure" out loud because it can see the contents of the current document just like MacSpeech could. Now type a space and the word "test" at the end of the body of the message. Click the Subject line of the message and then click the body of the message again. VoiceOver will read "MacSpeech failure test" because it can see the current contents of the document. But the MacSpeech cache is now out of sync because you mixed typing and dictation. MacSpeech thinks that the document currently says "MacSpeech failure". It has no idea that the document changed when you typed the word "test". Now say "forget that". MacSpeech thinks that you want it to forget the word "failure". It blindly deletes seven characters off of the end of your document without looking at them to verify that they say "failure". The result is that it destroyed the word "test" and damaged your dictation. The final text will say "MacSpeech fail".

    Mixing typing with dictation is also not the only way to violate the MacSpeech "Golden Rule". Any app that auto-completes anything will also cause the MacSpeech cache to get out of sync. An example is when Mail auto-completes an email address when you start typing a name into the To line of a message. As long as MacSpeech depends on its own cache without paying attention to the actual contents of the text input boxes this will be a problem.

    The actual feature request should not be "allow mixing typing with dictation". The actual feature request should be "please make MacSpeech constantly synchronize its own cache automatically". That's the root of this problem. Aside from the plethora of stability problems, this is the single most important fix needed for MacSpeech. Adding the "purge cache" and "cache document" commands was not the right way to fix the problem of the MacSpeech cache getting out of sync. The correct way to solve that problem would have been for MacSpeech to synchronize its own cache. Those commands just shift the responsibility to the user, but it should never be the user's problem to visualize and maintain the current state of the MacSpeech cache.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. Oliver Bogler
    Member

    @endymion Thank you for that post - for the first time I now sort of understand the underlying functionality that leads to this issue of lack of "dual editing". It also lets me understand the response from jayg, which I didn't really comprehend.

    So, the $60,000 question - can this be fixed, realistically at a reasonable cost, and so perhaps might be?

    As I type this, my RSI is pinging from a long day at the keyboard and mouse...

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. endymion
    Member

    Yes, it could be fixed. For far less than $60k also. The fundamental MacSpeech design doesn't even have to change.

    The only thing that needs to change is that MacSpeech needs to update its own cache. MacSpeech depends on us to tell it when to update its cache. When they provided the "purge cache" and "cache document" commands they shifted that responsibility to us. That means that we have to burden ourselves with constantly thinking about it, visualizing the current MacSpeech cache and realizing when it gets out of sync. Why is that our problem? Those kinds of details are what computers are for.

    Before executing any editing or selection-moving command for the user, MacSpeech needs to verify that its cache is current and in sync. If not then it needs to do an automatic update. It can do that with the accessibility features provided by OSX. If I say "forget that" and MacSpeech thinks that the word "failure" is at the end of the line, then it shouldn't simply delete the last seven characters of the text. First, it should LOOK to see if the last seven characters of the text really say "failure". If not then it needs to update itself. Simple.

    Aside from preventing MacSpeech from defacing our documents, think about how smooth dictation could be if MacSpeech were simply more aware of its surroundings. Why do I have to say "no space" 50 times a day when I try to use MacSpeech? MacSpeech inserts a space before a word because it thinks that it knows that the insertion point is at the end of a word. If the insertion point is NOT at the end of a word then why do I have to tell MacSpeech about that? Why doesn't it just LOOK and then dictate appropriately?

    The accessibility features are provided by OSX specifically for this kind of thing. I don't understand why MacSpeech doesn't use them. I also don't understand why MacSpeech employs that silliness when you say "cache document" to find the contents of the current document. That whole process of selecting the text as if a human were doing it is slow and cumbersome. Notice how VoiceOver doesn't have to do that? You don't have to alter the current insertion point and select the text and all of that silliness to find the contents of the current text input box. You just use the accessibility features in OSX to query the text box behind the scenes, non-destructively. It's MUCH faster. VoiceOver would be totally useless if it had to run through the same bizarre motions of selecting the text and copying it every time in order to read the contents of a window.

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. billyjp
    Member

    endymion- I'm going to start calling you "Johnny Cache". ;-)

    What's your configuration? You never even mentioned what applications you're running.

    It seems to me that MacSpeech's design is to use a "cache" to keep track of the text in the document being written. The problem, it seems to me is in the implementation. Dictate requires you to manually update the cache by actively using commands "Cache Document" and "Cache Selection". I agree this sucks. Most users don't get it right away. I bill by the hour for teaching them, so it's not so bad for me, except when I used it myself.

    Furthermore, it seems like a workaround because it's not true about the implementation with Dictate's Note Pad. Note Pad automatically updates the cache. And even one of the recent updates, I think 1.5.1, they added automatic caching for TextEdit and Microsoft Word. I'm not even sure how they did this with Microsoft Word. It's a little dodgy there. TextEdit works well though. I can even paste in text or type in words and...(drum roll)...I can edit them by voice.

    Not all applications support the accessibility APIs in Mac OS X (Leopard?). So, when you say "just use the accessibility features in OS X", you may or may not be talking about something that works. It depends on the application. And then it depends on MacSpeech implementing it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. endymion
    Member

    Call me Johnny Cache if you want. I'm harping on this specific thing rather whining about all of the stability flaws because this issue is a fundamental flaw in the overall design. It unnecessarily causes a wide variety of problems and it unnecessarily limits how I can use my computer when I use MacSpeech.

    I use a MacBook Pro 2.53 GHz with 4 GB of memory. I mostly use TextMate and XCode, MacSpeech can't dictate into either of them so the entire issue is moot for the applications that I'm running. But the problem is obvious enough if you just try to send an email with the built-in OSX Mail app. Your cache is out of sync the moment that Mail auto-completes an email address whether you mix typing and dictation or not.

    Reading the current text via accessibility features is supported by nearly every app on the Mac. It might not work in Flash apps and a few other cases but it's supported by almost every app. So why shouldn't MacSpeech try to use it when it is supported? If they don't want to totally depend on the accessibility features then they could use the cache concept as a crutch when the text isn't accessible. But when the text is easily accessible in a millisecond then why should you have to either remember to say "cache document" or wait for it to actually select all of your text with your cursor? That's slow. Much slower than getting the text through accessibility features.

    If I tell MacSpeech "forget that" and it deletes the wrong thing because it assumes that it knows the state of the text but it doesn't, and it could have easily looked, then as far as I'm concerned that was a bug in MacSpeech that defaced my document. If my document gets defaced and it didn't have to be that way, then that's a bug.

    The cache aspect of the MacSpeech design causes all of these problems:

    1) damaged documents
    2) additional mental burden on the user to envision the design model and manually maintain the cache
    3) limitation on how users interact with the computer
    4) limitation on what apps can be used with dictation, since any app that auto-completes anything is not compatible with MacSpeech. Including Mail, TextMate, and others.
    5) increased learning curve and frustration for less-savvy computer users.

    All of these things would go away if MacSpeech would just look to see what it's about to delete before it deletes it. It just needs to do more to pay attention to its surroundings. Leaning on me to clue it into the state of the document is not acceptable. That's what computers are for.

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. Oliver Bogler
    Member

    I recently upgraded to Snow Leopard, and now my MacSpeech Dictate no longer works. I can upgrade to the 1.5 - but would only do so, if this issue has been fixed in that version. I see no evidence in that from the promo info on the site. Anyone know?

    Thanks!

    Posted 4 months ago #

19. MoonWalker
    Member

    Cache Document in v1.5 should fix your mouse/keyboard editing needs. As you described in your original post, Dictate doesn't see the corrections make with keyboard/mouse, but with the Cache Document command, it will scan and discover any changes made manually. For example:

    Lets say I dictate "I really want to" <pause> "to go to Mars some day". Of course Dictate will write:

    I really want to to go to Mars some day

    Obviously I have too many "to"s in there. I can highlight and delete one of the "to"s with my keyboard and mouse, but if I say "Select the word 'want'" later in my dictation, it will highlight "ly w" because it still thinks "to " is in there and highlights 4 characters that are 26 characters from the end. Saying "Cache Document" at the end will make it recognize any additions, subtractions, changes, and cursor placement and bring them into Dictate knowledge/memory (AKA - cache). So, with 1.5, it would be as easy as making the correction, then saying "cache document", it will process the document, make note of any changes, and you can resume as normal. In the example above, saying "cache document" would cause Dictate to realize that "want" is no longer 26 characters from the end, but rather 23 characters from the end.

    Also, the notepad in 1.5, works better with this as it has an "auto-caching" like feature that keeps better track of editing and cursor placement.

    Posted 2 months ago #

20. jayg
    Administrator

    When used with MacSpeech Dictate, TextEdit and Dictate's NotePad have varying abilities to automatically track changes, such as those made by keyboard, mouse. It is still not recommended to mix keyboard/mouse with voice, at the same time. But if you want to test "dual editing", try it using Dictate's NotePad and TextEdit and let us know if the results are closer to your expectations.

    In addition, the "Cache Selection" and "Cache Document" commands are provided to give you more control than you would otherwise have. As an example, you can use these commands when you want to use your voice to edit text that wasn't originally dictated. :-)

    Posted 2 months ago #

21. DrGreg
    Member

    I have struggled with various versions since the product first came out. Most problems that I was having seen to be resolved. However, the problem of not being able to mix voice commands and mouse and keyboard commands transparently, without having to purge cache etc is a real pain in the... I'm so glad that others are raising this issue as well, and I support any moves to get the software to be more user-friendly.

    One other issue that bugs me, when using the mouse to move from one document or application to another the software sometimes gets lost and I have to click from one document to another until it finally picks up the document I want to work on.

    Posted 2 months ago #

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